Transcripts

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Joe Supervielle:

Welcome to Voices in Local Government, an ICMA podcast. My name is Joe Supervielle and with us to explain how to set up a successful assistant and deputy manager exchange program, is Katherine Caffrey, deputy city manager of Cedar Park Texas. Thanks for joining us today.

Katherine Caffrey:

Yeah, hi. Great to see you. Thanks for having me on.

Joe Supervielle:

So Cedar Park Texas just outside of Austin, Texas. Quick plug, ICMA annual conference 2023, September 30 through October 4th. So everyone mark your calendars now. But Katherine, tell us a little bit about Cedar Park. What's your favorite aspect of it, fun fact, maybe even a myth to dispel it's not all boots and barbecue sauce? What's going on in Cedar Park?

Katherine Caffrey:

Yeah, I think my myth to dispel, I'm so glad you said we were adjacent to Austin, is there is a very similar city outside Dallas called Cedar Hill. And so, it is sort of, I feel a running joke between Cedar Parkers and Cedar Hillers that people will contact each other and they're actually looking for the other city. So my myth Cedar is, Cedar Park is Austin, Cedar Hill is Dallas.

Joe Supervielle:

They google it really quick and then just whichever one pops up first they call.

Katherine Caffrey:

Yeah.

Joe Supervielle:

Then there's headache for everyone.

Katherine Caffrey:

Exactly.

Joe Supervielle:

What's your favorite part of working there, day to day, which we'll get into with the exchange program, but the deputy manager role is often the kind of do everything, a little bit of everything, putting out fires here and there, but what's your favorite part of the job?

Katherine Caffrey:

Well, I've been with the city for about 15 years. I came here from the city of Little Rock, Arkansas. And I guess another fun fact, speaking of location of where Cedar Park is, so when I was looking at this job I had to look up Cedar Park on a map and I was like, "Where is this place?" And I thought, "Oh, I'll just go there for a little bit and then get a job at City of Austin or some other really big city as soon as I can." And of course all well laid plans, 15 years later, here I am.

I think the thing I like most about Cedar Park as an organization is that, well, I mean I honestly came to work for who our city manager is who's still here. So she's sort of a unicorn. She's been a city manager for going on 20 years in the same spot. But really kind of her leadership style, which I think I've adopted myself, is that you can raise your hand for any type of project even if it's outside of your normal job description and if you've got initiative and interest and hard work, you can kind of tackle it. And so that, has really helped my career and definitely kept things fresh and interesting even after so many years.

Joe Supervielle:

So the exchange program itself, first tell us what it's called, what you named it and how the idea even came about in the first place?

Katherine Caffrey:

Sure. Well it's called TEXchange but it really was sort of this very informal thing that Karen Daly, who is a former city manager within Texas who's very well known who also happens to now kind of work for ICMA as well.

Joe Supervielle:

Regional director we love [inaudible 00:02:49].

Katherine Caffrey:

Yes, everybody knows Karen in Texas at least. She and I were having lunch one day and it was sort of towards the end of the pandemic, but it definitely was not in the rear-view mirror, and we were really talking about what I think is on top of everybody's mind, which was burnout. And you're tired, you're burnt out. It had been a really rough years to be in local government frankly. And so, I was sort of bemoaning to her that I had been with the city for a long time and that I really wanted to get fresh eyes. It's hard when you have grown up in an organization. I came to Cedar Park as the assistant to the city manager. I've held maybe five or six different jobs in my time here leading up to deputy. And it is easy to not really know any other way to do things than the way you do them, because you've been there so long.

And so, we were talking about how common it is that you'll see assistant city managers in particular or deputies who are homegrown in an organization and who have been there a long time and there isn't really a lot of professional development opportunities out there that are for really that specific group. So for people that are senior level tenured, but who maybe still want to also get some really rich development. And so, we came with this idea of how wouldn't it be great if I could plop down in some other city for three or four days and just be a bug on the wall and see how they run things. And that was how it was born.

Joe Supervielle:

Going back to the phrase I used earlier, putting out fires is part of the job, but that also makes you so busy or so I don't want to say narrow-minded, but focused on the immediate that it's harder to get that big picture, so literally extracting yourself and going somewhere else kind of forces that to happen.

Katherine Caffrey:

Absolutely. And it was funny actually when we sent out this email for now what is going to be a more formal program but really started at emails Karen and I sent out to people across the state. I cannot tell you how many fellow assistant city managers and deputies wrote me back and said, "I'm so busy I can't possibly take four days away from my desk." And I get that feeling, I really do. But there's no greater thing to get you re-energized about what you do than actually leaving for a few days, much like you find at a conference. Because, you are really going to be totally entrenched in some other organization for the time you're gone.

Joe Supervielle:

And it is tough. And then similar to vacation days, that people are reluctant to use, because the work doesn't stop, the emails don't stop and it's just more for me to deal with when I get back. But we're going to get into why it's worth it. And then you said fly on the wall but not really because you're not there just to absorb, you're also there to share your perspective and ideas with the host, which we'll get into. Because, the idea is to be beneficial for both sides.

Katherine's going to walk us through what they did in Texas and maybe how they're going to do it even better this time around. But for other people in other states, wherever, this is kind of like a roadmap, but it's not a construction manual. You can figure out how to do it on your own or different ways. So these aren't rules per se, it's just kind of what worked for them or maybe what they learned that are going to do better this time around. Let's talk about the setup a little bit. I just put that caveat in there, because I'm going to say what are the qualifications to be either a participant or a host, but qualifications isn't necessarily the word because it's not necessarily that strict, but what framework did you put in place?

Katherine Caffrey:

So we felt like, again, because this whole thing was a very self-serving conversation over lunch, really the ideal kind of applicant that would be the visiting person needed to be an assistant city manager or deputy city manager. So really that number two role, preferably pretty tenured in their organization or in that position, because really the crux of the purpose of this is to get fresh perspective. And so, if you are a brand new employee or if you have bounced around at lots of different places and always have that benefit of seeing things done differently, then this really probably doesn't benefit you as much as it does to people [inaudible 00:07:04].

Joe Supervielle:

Or at least not yet.

Katherine Caffrey:

Right, not yet, as much as it benefits people that are tenured. The reason why we also did keep things at a ACM or DCM level, was we in exchange asked the host city manager to be as transparent as possible and to include this person in as much as possible. And I think with that comes definitely a sense of trust and a respect for confidentiality where appropriate and sensitivity to things that this city manager is going to share with you about the organization, maybe their politics, whatever. And we felt like it was really important that the person going there respects that and understands that dynamic.

Joe Supervielle:

And to make sure the trust is there so they can really be involved in the real conversations and not just the fluffy, here's our formality meeting type thing. So then what about on the host side? Is it really just a matter of being open to accepting someone like that? Did they have to send someone out to have someone come back in?

Katherine Caffrey:

No, they didn't have to. I mean, again, this was so informal, but really what we did was we sort of brainstormed a list of city managers that Karen and I knew that we thought would sort of have a learner mindset. And so, to us it was more important that they were people that we thought would be forthcoming, would be open, would be happy to share, would sort of get energized by having somebody new hanging around in their office. So really the personality of the city manager was what drove us to reach out to the people we did. That being said, there are lots of great city managers in this state and so I think this year now that our little made up program was so successful, we will definitely be reaching out to more managers to give them an opportunity to host as well. Because, it was very interesting I think going into this we thought the people visiting are going to get a ton out of this and the hosts are sort of just doing a nice thing.

But what we found when we would talk to the host managers after, was how beneficial it was for them as well to get somebody to plop down in their organization for a few days and ask questions, say, "Hey, why do you do it this way?" And ask things that maybe that manager hadn't thought about in a long time. And then even in my own case, and I think this happened in others, I went to the city of Plano, which is a really large suburb of Dallas. Their manager Mark Israelson is very well regarded in the state, but he was curious and like, "Hey, what is your opinion on this? Hey you've seen this for a few days, what do you think?" That was a great opportunity for us both to share. So I think the host managers also really enjoyed the program.

Joe Supervielle:

Yeah, try to get everyone out of maybe autopilot mode, we're just getting through all the stuff we have to, but let's take a look at problems or challenges from a different angle. It sounds like you are going to make the Texas version a little bit more formal in 2023, but again for someone from a different state or region, if they're just going to try and do that first initial push to even just get a handful of these going, what was successful for you? It sounds like it was proactive outreach by you and Karen literally sending emails or making phone calls. How did you go about that? How time-consuming was it? Was there anything you learned after the fact that maybe someone just trying it out the first time should know before they even go for it?

Katherine Caffrey:

It's really not that hard to start this. Come up with a list of some ACMs and DCMs that sort of fit that bill, tenured, been in the role a long time, experienced, maybe they are looking to take a city manager job, maybe they're not. But either way they're kind of looking for very intense professional development. Because, it is an intense couple days they're going to spend wherever you go. So I think it's really about the people. So think of a handful of people that kind of fit that bill and then I think of a handful of city managers and they don't have to be from the most exciting city in the world, but if they're really quality managers that have great things to share and I think want to share with other people in the profession to make it better, then that's the right group.

And all we did was we emailed applicants one message of explaining the program. And I think what I would also tell anybody is, "Hey, feel free to link to the ICMA blog post that was done on the program to give a little more color to it." [inaudible 00:11:32]. I mean I know I will this year, but just tell them about the program, see if they're interested. We did lay out some framework of like, "Hey, you need to be prepared to spend two to four days. You need to be prepared to be there literally 24/7, you are there at that city. You need to go to a council meeting, you need to go with open ears." We give a little bit of framework, but it was pretty informal.

Similarly, we reached out to these host cities and said, "Hey, this is what we're looking at, are you open to having somebody come to your city? This is sort of what it'll look like." I think what we'll also do this year for the host cities, is give some guidance on what they should do with this person. So I was very fortunate, City of Plano was fabulous. They rolled out the red carpet and gave me a very packed three day itinerary of every hour, every meeting, everything I was going to be included in. Because, I kind of told them some areas I was interested in and that was a really rewarding experience. And so, I think we want to encourage the managers to, when you get matched with somebody, find out sort of what they're interested in and then really do plan an itinerary for them so that they're really getting something out of the time.

Joe Supervielle:

So once those messages got sent to both groups and you got back a handful or a dozen or more yeses, was it just on you and Karen to link them up or make the matches, and the scheduling and logistics I think was left to the individuals. But again, if someone's trying to replicate this, sending the messages out are pretty easy, but then figuring it out on the back end, how much did you do and how much did you leave it up to the people who just said yes?

Katherine Caffrey:

So initially, we sort of just let people pick where they wanted to go and it was sort of a first come, first serve, because we were just trying this out. This year I think we are going to actually sort of have people put down, "I want to go to an urban community, I want to go to a rural community. I want to go to a suburban community." Or actually put down a little bit of information about what they hope to gain, is it I am actively looking for city manager jobs and so I want to go someplace where this person can really talk to me about being a city manager or I am working on X, Y, Z project. And so, I'd love to go to a place that has something similar. So I think we're going to this year look for a little bit more input, on to what the visiting managers are looking for. And then we will probably place people just to prevent three people picking the same city and things like that.

Joe Supervielle:

But again, someone maybe wanted to replicate this, don't feel overwhelmed that you're going to turn into this planner or secretary for [inaudible 00:14:09].

Katherine Caffrey:

It's literally some emails and I kept an Excel spreadsheet going and it was not that hard. And now that this, at least here I guess the word is spread and people are so interested in doing it. I am actually, I guess I need to create a Google doc so it looks like an official form. Maybe I'll see if I can whip up a logo, but that's about as formal as I'm going to get. So it is pretty easy. You do need to be on your email and matching people up, but it's really up to the manager and then the person visiting to figure out dates and what's all happening. And obviously cover costs, whoever's visiting, they cover their own travel costs.

Joe Supervielle:

Right. Okay, well let's talk about some specific results. You mentioned when you went to Plano there were three days of packed itinerary. There was a quote from the blog that you and Karen wrote where this program was described as, "Professional development program on steroids that left everyone energized with new perspectives." Which is good. There's not necessarily accreditation or anything at the end, but just learning and actually getting the experience, I think we've established that, but are there any specific stories that you heard from either the hosts or the participant deputy managers that you can share with the audience?

Katherine Caffrey:

Absolutely. I think in my own experience, there were a couple things that stood out to me. One, everyone was super welcoming, but I don't think that's unique to Plano honestly. Local government and city management, is just a profession that is so founded on sharing with your peers and being open. And that is something we are so fortunate to have. So you already sort of have this culture of people that want to talk about their profession and learn from each other, which was great. But when I got to Plano, actually it was a very recent appointment that they had just promoted their fire chief to deputy city manager and he had public safety obviously, because that was his background. I had just been promoted to deputy city manager in my own city and for the first time was working with police and fire.

And they are very different from the Parks department when it comes to sort of the dynamics and a lot of the, especially union or association kind of dynamics that go on that department. And I met with Sam Cooke was his name. I know Sam for what felt like hours, I probably took up way too much of his time one evening picking his brain on all things civil service, all things fire department. And it was super helpful to just really dive deep into that in a way I would've never gotten in any other form or fashion. I mean I would never have been able to go to any conference session that would've given me that deep of information and that deep of just sort of what about this.

Joe Supervielle:

And one-on-one time. You can learn at the conferences and state associations are all great, but one-on-one is a whole other level.

Katherine Caffrey:

And then I think I also enjoyed really learning about some of the community programs that Plano does. They're larger than Cedar Park, but in many ways looking at Plano is like looking at Cedar Park 20, 30 years down the road, just with sort of the things they're working on, some of their population dynamics, how they do land use. And so, it was fascinating and helpful to find out honestly about a lot of their neighborhood programs that they do and redevelopment initiatives that I thought, "Oh that is so fascinating and we should do that." And actually we are genuinely implementing several small programs Plano's done for years that I learned about there and their staff were just really gracious to give me all the information I can need. So those are some of my examples.

Things I heard from other people that participated, was there was one gentleman who now is a city manager but who at the time was an ACM and he went to another city and what he really wanted was to spend time with another city manager and talk about their council dynamics, which for a city manager, city councils is the bread and butter of your job, but if you are an ACM or a Deputy CM, you do not have that same level of experience. And so, this person met with a few of the host city's council members and was able to just ask, "Hey, what do you look for in a city manager? What's it like to work with a city manager?" I mean the opportunity for someone who wants to become a city manager to get to talk substantively to another elected official at another community about their expectations for that job and things like that, you would never get that in any other setting.

Joe Supervielle:

And that could be maybe a little bit out of bounds or awkward in your own place, because then it comes across like you're angling for that job, which is your boss. And I think that does speak to it's not a secret if there are assistant or deputy city managers out there interested in taking that next step, especially as you said earlier, that are tenured in that assistant number two spot. That's a good thing, and it doesn't have to be shied away from or kind of done in secret...

Katherine Caffrey:

Right, but this is such a great way to do it. To your point that isn't stepping on toes in your own organization or upsetting the apple cart. I mean this is a really natural and you're expected to, "Hey, I'd like to be a city manager someday and I want to talk to you about your role as a council member and how you interact with your manager." That is such information I think you would never be able to get in any other setting.

Joe Supervielle:

The information on what do I need to do or learn to be qualified for that. But maybe even just getting fact finding on is this something I really want to do or maybe it's not for me and I don't want that headache.

Katherine Caffrey:

Absolutely.

Joe Supervielle:

[inaudible 00:19:42] stick to the DCM role. So you said one of them did become a city manager. I think there might have been a couple, but again, it's not the end game or the reason for someone to participate, but it is a legitimate reason to pursue it and see what else is out there. What does this job look like aside from just how I see my own boss doing it.

Katherine Caffrey:

I mean, yes, absolutely tenfold.

Joe Supervielle:

And then to backtrack a little bit, you mentioned how you learned a lot from Plano and you took a lot of actual real action items and real things you can implement, not just ideas but real steps to do these programs. We talked about benefits for the participants and the hosts, but that's a benefit for the manager who's kind of loaning out their number two and they might think, "Yeah, good for them, but can we even survive if they're gone for a week with travel and then three or four days?" But that's the point where, yeah let them go learn and then they come back and can do their job even better. So long run, it's beneficial for them as well.

Katherine Caffrey:

Yeah, like a funny side on that. I was driving back from Plano and I was talking to my manager on the phone. She and I have worked together for like I said, 15 years. We know each other super well. And she said, "Well, what'd you get out of the experience?" And before I launched into my learned about this program and that program, I said, "I realized they're not that different." And that organizationally, sometimes I think we beat ourselves up that we should be doing X better, Y better, we're behind on this or we need to push for this organizationally.

But here I was in this other community that is regarded across the country, frankly, but also definitely within the state as a top tier city. And they have the same challenges. They have the same little stuff, big stuff that they think, oh, we wish that was better or we wish we could do this more or whatever. And I thought, what great perspective that we do have great staff, we are doing great work and we're doing just as well as this really well regarded city. And so that, is great perspective that I think also my boss was like, "Okay, all right, we are doing okay."

Joe Supervielle:

Take a breath. And going back to that burnout, people still feel it but it's a reminder that it's not for nothing. Things are still moving forward and you're doing the job well right where you are.

Katherine Caffrey:

Yep.

Joe Supervielle:

All right. Well I'm going to cover, again, this is listed on the blog which will be linked on the podcast page for people to reference, but I wanted to just actually read out a few of the core elements for an exchange program that other people trying to set something up can take or leave. But I think these have all proven out to be pretty well. So interrupt at any point. Stop me if you want to jump in any time. But the six main takeaways are one, participate for a minimum of two, but probably more like three or even four days so you can get full exposure. This isn't really a one-day thing, because it's still nice and helpful but might not be worth it. Two, attend a host city council meeting. You said specifically how that access to a council's, where else can you do that? That's maybe the most valuable thing here.

Three, attend an executive staff meeting. Same reasons. And that goes back to what you mentioned about trust. Get in a real meeting with real issues, not just the fluff stuff. Four, report on your host when you return, which sounds like can be informal. You're just talking with your boss and kind of had a conversation. It's not like you're writing a big report, but that's helpful for all parties. And you tell me, but maybe whether it's just talking or maybe writing a quick brief for other people to see it, it's probably helpful to get those ideas down or out loud, not just kind of floating in your own head.

Katherine Caffrey:

Absolutely.

Joe Supervielle:

Five, plan a visit, but keep some flexibility. So again, scheduling is kind of left between the participant and the host and you want to get a good three or four days in, but don't be too rigid about it.

Katherine Caffrey:

And I think one thing I'd add on that, for especially the person visiting, your host city is hopefully going to do a great job and plan you a super robust itinerary. But it's also good to keep in mind these are still people that are showing up to work every day doing their job. So I definitely was not surprised and honestly the handful of times this happened, I thought, "Great, now I can log on to email too." You are visiting people that are still working and still need to go to meetings and take phone calls and things like that. So just keep in mind they're just out there doing doing their work while you're sort of visiting, so that can happen too.

Joe Supervielle:

And then the sixth and final point, is encourage maybe is the word the assistant city manager to visit a host that's unlike their own city. So try and get that different exposure, not necessarily just in population size, but style or anything. There's a lot that goes into it, but don't necessarily just go across town, that's another suburb of Austin to actually try and get out and see something else.

Katherine Caffrey:

I would definitely say leaving your immediate region, I mean region is sort of a fluid word. What does that mean? So the Austin suburbs, both the Northern suburbs and Southern, they all participated, but I very purposely do not go to any of those. I think it's also a little too close for comfort if it's like I see you every other week at some other meeting. And so, I did go to a different part of the state and people that participate in Houston went down to the border and things like that. So I think definitely go a little outside of your comfort zone, so that you really are meeting new people and seeing something different.

Joe Supervielle:

And even if it's not their choice from the host perspective, maybe the same. Try and get someone that's from... It helps both sides because then the incoming, their ideas are fresh or unique compared to what's already going on in their bubble.

Katherine Caffrey:

Yep.

Joe Supervielle:

All right. Well I mean that wraps up the core elements and it sounds pretty straightforward, but thanks for walking us through it. And just to wrap it up a little bit, I typically ask at the end for the audience, what's their first step if they want to do something similar, I think you covered it, but it just seems like make that list of potential hosts, potential participants, and then send out those emails, just send out some invites and see if you get a number. Is there a number do you think? Is there a minimum number to make this worthwhile or is even if it's just a couple, what do you think?

Katherine Caffrey:

Well, I mean I think anything is better than nothing. Because, it is such a rich and unique experience. If you could get five or six people that are assistants and you get five or six hosts, I think that's perfect. I think this year for Texas, we will end up having closer, probably 20 on each just because I've gotten a lot of emails. But if you are the person listening to this podcast and you think that sounds great, but that would be way too much work for me to organize. You can do it. It really is just a handful of emails. You can fit this into your busy to-do list. And honestly, something that's an unintended benefit to this for myself is I feel like, "Oh, I guess this is some tiny way I'm contributing to the profession." And so, if you decide you want to take on contacting all these people, you two are also contributing to local government.

Joe Supervielle:

And I would add even coming from someone who's not good at networking or making contacts, it's a good way to do that, because there's a real reason you're not just blindly asking for a favor necessarily. It's like, do you want to participate in something that will help you? It's a good way to grow your network, make some contacts, whether you're searching for that next job or not, just kind of expanding out and branching out outside of your daily grind.

So if you are in Texas and want to contact Katherine about participating, the email is Katherine.caffrey, C-A-F-F-R-E-Y, @cedarparktexas.gov. That email will be, it's on the blog that's already published and it will be on the podcast page, so you don't have to write that down or memorize it. But she's there for Texas and anyone else across the country or even international that thinks this is a good idea, we kind of just say, go for it, start small, see what happens, and maybe grow from there just like Texas is going into 2023.

Katherine Caffrey:

Awesome. Well thank you so much Joe. I'm happy to share our program with other people.

Joe Supervielle:

Yep. Thanks for your time today. Appreciate it.

 

Episode is sponsored by

Guest Information

Katherine Caffrey, deputy city manager, Cedar Park, Texas

Episode Notes

"Professional development on steroids."

With the help of ICMA mountain plains regional director, Karen Daly, Katherine Caffrey created the TEXChange program in Texas to benefit assistant city/county managers break out of their grind, learn and contribute in a new environment, gain rare candid access to council, and prepare for a future manager position.

Caffrey outlines the goals of the exchange for participant and host, lessons learned in the inaugural group of 14, what's planned for 2023, and how to set up a similar informal program in your own region or state.

Resources

ICMA Blog: How We Created a Successful Exchange Student Program for Assistant and Deputy Managers

Save the Date: Friday, September 29, 2023. Austin Texas. Ahead of ICMA 2023 Annual Conference there will be a one day Assistant Manager Exchange Program. More details and registration to come.

Free, self-guided website solutions demo from CivicPlus.